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ZX-14 (06-11) No Flies for STREET- FINAL ANSWER! |
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Brock
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Joined: October/01/2003 Location: Dayton, OH Online Status: Offline Posts: 139 |
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Topic: ZX-14 (06-11) No Flies for STREET- FINAL ANSWER!Posted: September/21/2006 at 10:23am |
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It's amazing to me the perspective a little extra time gives a person. I HATE to give anyone inaccurate advice, but I believe I may have jumped the gun a bit in regards to some areas involving removing the secondary throttle plates (or "flies" as they have become known to the Internet crowd) for STREET use in the initial Low End Performance Gains article. I'm not making excuses, but please allow me to explain: Most of my seat time on any bike these days is on the Dyno and drag strip as 'pleasure riding' usually does not get penciled into my busy schedule. The day I completed the no secondary throttle plates Dyno sessions, I decided to take my 14 out for a brief ride to get a seat-of-the-pants feel for this new configuration. Quite simply, I rolled the bike off of the Dyno, put on my helmet and jacket, and headed for the closest road which would allow me to twist the gas a bit. I had just witnessed the bike do things on the Dyno i.e. stall, buck, jump, etc. which surely biased my judgment, AND as luck would have it my chosen test road also had expansion joints! Armed with straight MR9 and no air cleaner, while personally sporting an exhausted attitude about what I just felt and witnessed on the Dyno from my new favorite ride, I headed out. Every time I crossed an expansion joint, my head snapped back and my smooth powerful ZX-14 lunged forward making it feel like a jerky mess. In short, I liked the added power, but I thought the drivability sucked. Since the initial story, I have ridden about 200 miles on the street without the secondary plates (FYI: that is a bunch of street miles for me!). I typically leave my 'no secondary's' track map in the Power Commander. This is the exact map Sonny used to run 9.15 (with no air cleaner and MR9 fuel during testing.) I like to keep the bike race-ready just in case I get a chance to break away and head to the drag strip; so, for the most part, I leave the race map in and the flies out. (FYI: I install my air cleaner, pump gas, and the appropriate matching map before heading out for longer street rides. I DO NOT recommend that anyone ever ride on the street without their air cleaner installed. Serious engine damage can result in a hurry! Of course with the air cleaner and pump gas, the bike is down about 10 HP average, but it is still a COMPLETE JOY to ride and FAST AS HELL!) When riding the bike without the secondary plates, the throttle response and drivability is PERFECT on any normal road. The only ill affect I have noticed is an occasional deceleration pop from the exhaust while backing off of the gas during shifts. I have my emission system blocked so I'm sure the pop is the result of a lean or rich condition which may or may not be curable after disabling a factory control mechanism?! For now, I will have to live with it. My data logger will be on the bike soon, so I will know more about the A/F ratio while the bike's moving which should help me find a direction toward any potential cure. In my opinion, deceleration pop is merely a nuisance, and I have never witnessed any damaging affects to any bike I have ever owned as a result of it. The throttle response is MUCH smoother (and more tame) with pump gas than when using MR9 with the air cleaner removed. However, once I re-trained myself to modulate the throttle gently enough to control the extra low-end power, my 'flyless' 14 is every bit as smooth as any Busa that I have ever mapped. The ZX-14 engine makes so much torque that the lower rev/wide open throttle position stalls that plagued me on the Dyno DID NOT OCCUR on the street. You would have to be a horrible rider to even get in a position to bog the bike to the point of shut off on the street as the low end grunt of the 14 just won't allow a competent rider to screw up so badly. Further reports from some of our street riders (using our street maps) have confirmed my own findings that the fuel mileage did not suffer as a result of removing the secondary's; in fact, some actually reported an INCREASE in miles per gallon! This does correspond somewhat to my Dyno results because, yet again, the 14 is so powerful that low RPM rides at moderate throttle openings do not occur much during normal use. This allows the bike to function at an area of the factory mapping which does not require a significant amount of additional fuel with the flies out compared to having the flies installed. I still believe that this modification is not for all riders, and that a considerable mechanical aptitude must be present to perform this alteration correctly. I also believe that the 'no secondary' configuration is a bit rowdy for most riders (who do not possess above-average riding skills at the drag strip) with a stock wheelbase ZX-14. Of course, this modification is perfect for 14�s with lengthened swingarms and street squids with a passion for wheelies! I personally have struggled with the abrupt power delivery, but a (still not healed) wrist fracture has delayed my riding practice throughout the summer. I stand firm with the rest of the results from the first 'no flies' article. That being said, I now 'officially' stand corrected on my 'no flies' stance for street use and must (of course) admit to being a VERY happy member of the 'need to compensate' club! Good Luck and GO FAST! Brock P. S. There have been questions posed of late on the effects of adding the TRE and removing the flies in conjunction with the stock exhaust system. I am a racer who makes his living in the after-market performance business. No racer who cares about their personal reputation at all would show up at a closed course timed event with a bike which is not set up to go as fast as possible. That's why we call it a RACE track. My job and passion is to go fast and pass my knowledge on to my customers and friends for further use against "non" or "soon to be, as a result of" customers/friends. I will not be testing these modifications on a factory strangled machine anytime soon, as I keep myself EXTREMELY busy designing and testing new products to make the fastest sport bikes even faster. I'm sure someone else has the time and would be glad to post their results in the forum?!? |
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SticknMove
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Joined: November/05/2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 36 |
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Posted: January/03/2007 at 12:42pm |
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Hello Brock, I just recently purchased 07 ZX14. I've talked to Jim and have ordered my streetmegaphone system with mapped power commander for settings flies out (track setup). Is there a substantial difference between the track and street set ups on the map? I only ride street, never track but I wanted the most horsepower the this puppy would produce. I've been riding ten plus years, just sold my zx12 to get the zx14. Should I have told Jim to keep it at street map vs. track maps?
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"The New King"
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*EJ*
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Joined: January/19/2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1016 |
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Posted: January/04/2007 at 4:15pm |
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SticknMove, the track map will be fine on the street, it will give you the best performance. The street map gives you better gas mileage, but you have a ZX-14.
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SticknMove
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Joined: November/05/2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 36 |
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Posted: January/28/2007 at 6:31pm |
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Brock where do I find instruction steps for removal of secondary flies?
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"The New King"
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*EJ*
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Posted: January/31/2007 at 10:13am |
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SticknMove, go to the private section, then go to ZX-14 test and race info. It is dated June 25, 2006 in green type.
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neilmcneill
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Joined: September/25/2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5 |
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Posted: August/14/2007 at 10:06pm |
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So im so confused now. What is better for drag racing , No flies or TRE? |
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New 2 this
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Brock
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Joined: October/01/2003 Location: Dayton, OH Online Status: Offline Posts: 139 |
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Posted: August/15/2007 at 12:09am |
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No flies-proper map-proper gearing to handle the extra power. Brock |
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RRTBUSA
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Joined: March/14/2003 Location: South,Louisiana Online Status: Offline Posts: 63 |
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Posted: August/15/2007 at 1:18pm |
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BROCK, what gearing would you suggest for a ZX- 14,street megaphone,no flies,track map,63",lowered,airshifter, speedohealer,Rider@about 182#-186# suited?? |
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*EJ*
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Joined: January/19/2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1016 |
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Posted: August/15/2007 at 2:25pm |
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17/42 17/43 Rule of thumb is to cross finish line (1/4 mile) in top of fourth gear.
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adee
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Joined: November/20/2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
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Posted: November/23/2007 at 4:54pm |
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does anyone know where i can find instructions for taking secondaries flies out?
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eg3n4
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hammertime
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Joined: November/22/2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2 |
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Posted: November/30/2007 at 10:10am |
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For pictures and step by step instructions for taking flies out, http://www.zxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7500
Also, try to find a #1 DIN (Japanese) Philips screwdriver. This biggest problem seems to be making sure you don't strip the head off the screws. They are secured with Loktite. Good luck |
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Brock
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Joined: October/01/2003 Location: Dayton, OH Online Status: Offline Posts: 139 |
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Posted: November/30/2007 at 10:40am |
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hammertime, We have detailed instructions on exactly how to remove the flies in our private ZX-14 section. You have a yahoo account...our approvals, maps, and everything we need to get to you are being BLOCKED. We have tried to contact you to cure this with no luck. Please call my office and ask for Clark. He will tell you what to do so that your information arrives properly. 937-912-0054 Brock (adee, I can only provide the info....I can't MAKE you read it. SEE THE ZX-14 TEST AND RACE INFORMATION IN THE PRIVATE SECTION) |
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hammertime
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Joined: November/22/2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2 |
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Posted: November/30/2007 at 11:14pm |
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Brock, I spoke with Clark this morning. Your emails and maps are getting through to me, but my access to the private section is still blocked. I'm going to send you a private email. Hammertime |
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bin01123
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Joined: March/07/2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 21 |
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Posted: May/30/2008 at 11:38am |
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I'm thinking about taking the flies out of my 06 ZX10. What are the horsepower gains from making this mod? And will I feel the power on bottom or top end? |
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BDJ
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jasongillum
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Joined: May/14/2003 Online Status: Offline Posts: 528 |
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Posted: June/02/2008 at 8:52am |
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Bin01123, We have found that the 1000cc motorcycles do not really benifit from the flies removed. They are stuck open pretty much the entire time. |
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Jason Gillum
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muzzii
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Joined: March/03/2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
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Posted: March/03/2010 at 10:46am |
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I just wanted to say that after researching the secondary files mod i decided to do it to my 09 zx-14. Let me just say that it was a little tricky and using 2 screwdrivers to heat the screw was the trick. But the rewards are for me astounding. The low end of the bike is much more intense since the mod. I did think that anything short of some major mods would open up the low end on this bike, hell it was already pretty scary, but this mod did just that. I would not suggest it for the faint at heart rider, but like it has been said before: If you want to unleash the full potential of the beast, this is a good mod to start with.
09 ZX-14 Akrapovic Evo Full Exhaust PCV K&N Secondaries out Dyno'd at 180.3 hp and 107 ft/lbs torque |
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- Muzzii
Love of the good and the beautiful gives a soul wings - Plato |
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edmnet1948@yahoo.com
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Joined: March/28/2011 Location: DALLAS,TX Online Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
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Posted: April/01/2011 at 8:54pm |
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I HAVE ASMEG EXHST -ZX14R 2008 EXHAUST, ALSO A BMC AIR RACE FILTER & A POWER CIMMANDER 5 , I NEED THE BROCKS MAPS TO PROGRAM MY POWER COMMANDER |
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EDWARD MULDREW
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federimau
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Joined: August/31/2011 Location: FUNES Online Status: Offline Posts: 17 |
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Posted: December/07/2011 at 1:33pm |
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Brock, when removing secondary flies... this mod can make the bike run too lean? out of the limits for the motor? can the motor fail? What do you think?
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Brock
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Joined: October/01/2003 Location: Dayton, OH Online Status: Offline Posts: 139 |
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Posted: December/07/2011 at 2:39pm |
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17 or 18 -1 is very lean... if low octane is used, especially in combination with hot external temps - engine failure could occur.
**We would not recommend operation without the flies without a map to match this combination**
Of course, all Brock's Performance full system purchasers receive this mapping with their purchase for 2006-2011 ZX-14's through our Map Support program.
We will begin map development for the ZX-14R's very soon. But true Power Commanders do not currently exist for them and makeshift ZX-10R PCV mapping will be limited.
Brock
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federimau
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Joined: August/31/2011 Location: FUNES Online Status: Offline Posts: 17 |
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Posted: December/14/2011 at 5:02am |
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Thank you, I'm looking for the PCV map and it substract (lean) fuel in some cells, when we use the bike in high rpm´s it will run leaner than factory settings with the pcv installed? Here are people that says if you remove the secondaries automatically the bike runs too lean... is this correct? Thanks
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federimau
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Joined: August/31/2011 Location: FUNES Online Status: Offline Posts: 17 |
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Posted: December/14/2011 at 11:54am |
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Davidson, here the technician says the flies have a "sensor" for the fuel injection, then if you remove the secondaries the bike runs lean... I don´t think that... the flies are attached to a common shaft and moved (open or close) by a motor in conjunction with the signal of throttle... is it??
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Brock
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Joined: October/01/2003 Location: Dayton, OH Online Status: Offline Posts: 139 |
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Posted: December/16/2011 at 10:07am |
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federimau,
Please go here to read our ZX-14 Diaries: http://www.brocksperformance.com/brocknm/feature_articles.aspx
The ZX-14 UPDATE shows dyno charts with air fuel readings at dangerously lean levels.
Go to our Map Support program on our home page to requests maps for your exhaust:
Brock
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ulaseksioglu
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Joined: March/06/2012 Location: istanbul Online Status: Offline Posts: 13 |
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Posted: March/10/2012 at 10:01am |
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I bought a Ct magaphone full system for 2012 zzr1400 european model I also have a O2 sensor eliminator, I couldnt buy a PCV cause they told me its on development, I also would like to buy a bonneville pro from muzzy but they said its also on development, I would like to ask shall i take of the secondary flies off on my bike or would it be better to wait for a TRE and if I take off the secondary flies will it cause any problems with the new power mode or not.
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second, is the first looser.
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federimau
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Joined: August/31/2011 Location: FUNES Online Status: Offline Posts: 17 |
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Posted: March/10/2012 at 10:11am |
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I´ll wait to remove the secondaries... in some RPM's window, I think the bike will run dangerous lean...
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federimau
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Posted: March/10/2012 at 10:17am |
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ulaseksioglu , Dynojet is supposed to have the PCV out for the 2012 ZX14 this month
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ulaseksioglu
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Joined: March/06/2012 Location: istanbul Online Status: Offline Posts: 13 |
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Posted: March/10/2012 at 1:00pm |
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federimau
I talked with the european dealer of dynojet he toldme that they will introduce it in early april this year for europe. I dont care if the bike get dangerous or not I just want to get the biggest power available from the bikeso if removing the secondary butterflies wont break my bike or wont effect the powermode or ruin my bike in any ways than I will definately remove the flys Personaly I hate restrictions. So if any professional mechanic in brock would let me to remove em I will throwem in to waste basket
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second, is the first looser.
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federimau
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Posted: March/10/2012 at 1:23pm |
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Mmmm, do you have acces to any Air-fuel ratio meter? You can see how the bike works with this mod, be carefully with the temperature inside the combustion chamber, be sure you are not too lean (AFR 17 or more)... dangerous... piston melt
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ulaseksioglu
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Joined: March/06/2012 Location: istanbul Online Status: Offline Posts: 13 |
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Posted: March/11/2012 at 5:34am |
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In my country I can only find 97ron fuel at max which means 86-87mon maybe refers to normal low quality fuel in states so you are right I guess. It may lead to detonation and harm my engine cause especialy its like 28 to 34 celcious degrees in here at summer. with the addition of low quality fuel to that hot air it may cause danger with out a propper mapping, I will wait the pcv and also will wait the brocks until they take off the secondaries from thier louiswille slugger machine.
Thx for your kind help btw m8
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second, is the first looser.
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federimau
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Posted: March/11/2012 at 7:14am |
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Good choice... keep in touch
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Goldwingmann
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Joined: March/25/2012 Location: Deltona,Florida Online Status: Offline Posts: 38 |
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Posted: March/25/2012 at 9:48pm |
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I have a new 2012 ZX14r,only 60 miles on the clock, and my Brock CT Dual Titanium system should be here this week. Since no high performance air cleaner, or Power Commander is available for this bike yet, what kind of HP over stock will this system produce over stock HP with regular high octane gasoline, stock gearing, flies still inside..stock configuration?
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Audie Murphy didn't win the Medal of Honor by following orders!
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Goldwingmann
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Joined: March/25/2012 Location: Deltona,Florida Online Status: Offline Posts: 38 |
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Posted: March/27/2012 at 3:56pm |
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I just found a new BMC Race Air Cleaner, so that will install this Friday...now will pull the flies,and when the PC gets here with Brock's Map...will be good to go!
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Audie Murphy didn't win the Medal of Honor by following orders!
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Guests
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Posted: March/30/2012 at 10:26am |
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Go hear to read about the 2012, this link is about the 06-11, https://www.brocksperformance.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2250
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speedy14
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Joined: March/08/2013 Location: Austin Tx Online Status: Offline Posts: 4 |
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Posted: March/11/2013 at 10:22pm |
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Riding hard and fast in Austin Tx
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